enough deserve that name, though they be not wont to be sent to Bedlam."

Whether by this you have at all taken off the difficulty, and shown your measure to be any at all in the use of force, I leave the reader to judge. I asked, since great ones are unfit, what degrees of punishment or force are to be used? You answer, "So much force, and such penalties as are ordinarily sufficient to prevail with men of ordinary discretion." I tell you it is as hard to know who those men of common discretion are, as what degree of punishment you would have used; unless we will take the " determination of the law, which allows all to have common discretion, for whom it has not provided guardians or Bedlam :" so that in effect, your men of common discretion are all men not judged idiots or madmen. To clear this, you tell us, "when you speak of men of common discretion, and not desperately perverse and obstinate, you think it is plain enough, by common discretion you exclude not idiots only, and such as are usually called madmen, but likewise the desperately perverse and obstinate." It may be you did, for you best know what you meant in writing: but if by men of common discretion, you excluded the desperately perverse and obstinate, let us put what you meant by the words, men of common discretion, in the place of those words themselves, and then, according to your meaning, your rule stands thus: penalties ordinarily sufficient to prevail with men not desperately perverse and obstinate, and with men not desperately perverse and obstinate: so that at last, by men of common discretion, either you excluded only idiots and madmen; or if we must take your word for it, that by them you excluded likewise the desperately perverse and obstinate, and so meant something else; it is plain, you meant only a very useless and insignificant tautology.

You go on, and tell us, "If the penalties you speak of, be intended for the curing men's unreasonable prejudices and refractoriness against the true religion, then the reason why the desperately perverse and ob stinate are not to be regarded in measuring these

penalties, is very apparent. For as remedies are not provided for the incurable, so in the preparing and tempering them, regard is to be had only to those for whom they are designed." Which, true or false, is nothing to the purpose, in a place where you profess to inform us, what punishments are to be used. We are inquiring who are the desperately perverse and obstinate, and not whether they are to be punished or no. You pretend to give us a rule to know what degrees of force are to be used, and tell us, "it is so much as is ordinarily suf ficient to prevail with men of common discretion, and not desperately perverse and obstinate." We again ask, who are your men of common discretion? You tell us, "such as are not madmen or idiots, or desperately perverse and obstinate." Very well, but who are those desperately perverse and obstinate, how shall we know them? and to this you tell us, " they are not to be regarded in measuring these penalties." Whereby certainly we have got a plain measure of your moderate penalties. No, not yet; you go on in your next paragraph to perfect it, where you say, "To prevent a little cavil, it may be needful to note that there are degrees of perverseness and obstinacy, and that men may be perverse and obstinate without being desperately so." So then now we have your measure complete; and to determine the just degrees of punishments, and to clear up the doubt, who are the desperately perverse and obstinate, we need but be told that "there are degrees of perverseness and obstinacy;" and that men may be perverse and obstinate without being desperately so: and that therefore "some perverse and obstinate persons may be thought curable, though such as are desperately So, cannot.' But does all this tell us who are the desperately perverse and obstinate? which is the thing we want to be informed in; nor till you have told us that, have you removed the objection.

But if by desperately perverse and obstinate, you will tell us, you meant those, that are not wrought upon by your moderate penalties, as you seem to intimate in your reason why the desperately perverse and obstinate

are not to be regarded in measuring these penalties: "for," say you, "as remedies are not provided for the incurable; so in preparing and tempering them, regard is to be had only to those for whom they are designed.' So that by the desperately perverse and obstinate, you will perhaps say, it was plain you meant the incurable; for you ordinarily shift off the doubtfulness of one place, by appealing to as doubtful an expression in another. If you say, then, that by desperately perverse and obstinate, you mean incurable; I ask you again by what incurable? by your lower degrees of force? For I hope, where force is proper to work, those who are not wrought on by lower degrees may yet be by higher. If you mean so, then your answer will amount to thus much: moderate penalties are such as are sufficient to prevail on those who are not desperately perverse and obstinate. The desperately perverse and obstinate are those who are incurable, and the incurable are those on whom moderate penalties are not sufficient to prevail whereby at last we have got a sure measure of what are moderate penalties; just such an one, as if having a sovereign universal medicine put into your hand, which will never fail if you can hit the right dose, which the inventor tells you must be moderate : you should ask him what was the moderate quantity it is to be given in; and he should answer, in such a quantity as was ordinarily sufficient to work on common constitutions, and not desperately perverse and obstinate. And to your asking again, who were of desperately perverse and obstinate constitutions? It should be answered, those that were incurable. And who were incurable? Those whom a moderate quantity would not work on. And thus to your satisfaction, you know the moderate dose by the desperately perverse and obstinate; and the desperately perverse and obstinate by being incurable; and the incurable by the moderate dose. For if, as you say, remedies are not provided for the incurable, and none but moderate penalties are to be provided, is it not plain that you mean, that all that will not be wrought on by your moderate penalties are in your sense incurable?

VOL. VI.

T

To ease you, sir, of justifying yourself, and showing that I have mistaken you, do but tell us positively what in penalties is the highest degree of moderate; who are desperately perverse and obstinate; or who are incurable; without this relative and circular way of defining one by the other; and I will yield myself to have mistaken you, as much as you please.

If by incurable you mean such as no penalties, no punishments, no force is sufficient to work on; then your measure of moderate penalties will be this, that they are such as are sufficient to prevail with men not incurable, i. e. who cannot be prevailed on by any punishments, any force whatsoever; which will be a measure of moderate punishments, which (whatsoever you do) some will not be very apt to approve of.

But let us suppose by these marks, since you will afford us no better, that we can find who are desperately perverse and obstinate, we are yet as far as ever from finding the measures of your moderate punishments, till it can be known what degree of force it is, that is ordinarily sufficient to prevail with all that are men of common discretion, and not desperately perverse and obstinate; for you are told, that all men of the same degree of discretion are not apt to be moved with the same degree of penalties: but to this too you answer nothing, and so we are still without any rule or means of knowing how to adjust your punishments, that' being ordinarily sufficient to prevail upon one, the double whereof is not ordinarily sufficient to prevail

on another.

I tell you in the same place, "that you have given us in another place something like another boundary to your moderate penalties: but when examined, it proves just like the rest, amusing us only with good words, so put together as to have no direct meaning; an art very much in use amongst some sort of learned men: the words are these: Such penalties as may tempt persons who have any concern for their eternal salvation (and those who have none, ought not to be considered) to renounce a religion which they believe to be true, or profess one which they do not believe

not

to be so.' If by any concern, you mean such as men ought to have for their eternal salvation; by this rule you may make your punishments as great as you please; and all the severities you have disclaimed may be brought in play again: for none of those will be able to make a man, who is truly concerned for his eternal salvation, renounce a religion he believes to be true, or profess one he does not believe to be so. If by those who have any concern, you mean such who have some faint wishes for happiness hereafter, and would be glad to have things go well with them in the other world, but will venture nothing in this world for it; these the moderatest punishments you can imagine will make to change their religion. If by any concern, you mean whatever may be between these two; the degrees are so infinite, that to proportion your punishments by that, is to have no measure of them at all." To which all the reply I can find is only this, "that there are degrees of carelessness in men of their salvation, as well as of concern for it. So that such as have some concern for their salvation, may yet be careless of it to a great degree. And therefore if those who have any concern for their salvation, deserve regard and pity, then so may some careless persons: though those who have no concern for their salvation deserve not to be considered, which spoils a little harangue you give us," p. 382. If you think this to be an answer to what I said, or that it can satisfy one concerning the way of knowing what degrees of punishment are to be used, pray tell us so. The inquiry is, "what degrees of punishment will tempt a man, who has any concern for his eternal salvation, to renounce a religion he believes to be true?" And it is answered, "There are degrees of carelessness in men of their salvation, as well as concern for it." A happy discovery: what is the use of it? So that such as have some concern for their salvation may yet be careless of it to a great degree." Very true: by this we may know what degree of force is to be used. No, not a word of that; but the inference is, "and therefore, if those who have any concern for their salvation deserve