being filled with poor :-I don't know that he Did the defendant use the words charged assigned any reason. in the third count?—No, he said it was to be Did he not attribute it to the heavy taxes, lamented that in a time of peace and prosif he did not say oppressive ?-I do not recol- perity, our streets and poor houses were lect that he said the taxes were heavy; but if crowded with poor, and our gaols with thieves he had said they were oppressive, I am sure and debtors. that would have struck me. Did Mr. Winterbotham use the words in You don't recollect your having any con- the latter part of this count?-No, he did not versation with any of Mr. Winterbotham's express his astonishment at the quietness of friends about this sermon?—The only person the people; he enforced the necessity of a of this description I have ever said any thing reform in parliament, which he recommended to is Mrs. Holland, with whom I have fre- to be applied for without riot or tumult-in a quently conversed since we were subpænaed legal manner, by petitioning the House of to give evidence. Commons. Are you a frequent attendant on Mr. Win- Did Mr. Winterbotham say that oppressive terbotham's ministry ?-Yes; and have always laws and taxes were the causes of the streets considered him as a very respectable character. being filled with poor?—Ile might think the Have you never seen the sermon nor a copy weight of taxes was the cause of it, but he did of it! -No; I speak entirely from my own not mention the word “ oppressive" in all his recollection, unassisted by any other person discourse. or thing Are you sure Mr. Winterbolham did not Is not Mr. Winterbotham very intimate in use the word “ oppressive ?"-If the word your family?-He is no particular acquain- oppressive" had been used, it would have tance with my father or his family;' as a made an impression on my mind, and I must minister he occasionally visits. have recollected it. Did the defendant utter the words laid in Mrs. Surah Holland, sworn.-Examined by the fifth count?-He said no such thing, nor Mr. East. any thing like it. Are you a usual frequenter of the meeting You are sure he did not?-If he had iť where Mr. Winterbotham preaches ?-Yes. would have heen a contradiction to what he Were you there on the evening of the 5th before said; I supposed from what he said of November last ?-Yes, I was. that he thought the laws good. Were you there the whole time of the ser- Did the detendant use the words laid in the vice?-I was. sixth count?-He did not deny that money Did you pay particular attention to the had been paid off the national debt; but that defendant's sermon that evening?-Yes I did; other things had happened which made it it is my general practice so to do. necessary to lay on other taxes, which was the Did Mr. Winterbotham make use of the same as taking money out of one pocket and words charged in the first count?-No, nor putting it into the other : and what he said any thing like them; he said the laws made was in reference to the debates in the House at the time of the revolution were very good; of Commons. that ours was a glorious revolution. Did Mr. Winterbotham utter the words He did not say then that the laws had laid in the seventh count?-No; he used no been abused and brought into disuse ?-He such words, nor any like them. said that since that time the laws respecting Did he use the words laid in the ninth representation had been misused. count?-No, nothing of the kind; no part of He did not say the laws were abused in the sermon could be construed as if he thought any other sense, but as it respected the repre- we were deprived of our liberties; he never sentation in parliament !--No, in no other. held up the revolution in France, to be Did you hear the defendant utter the words imitated in this country; he said he thought laid in the second count?-No, he did not use a reform in the parliament necessary, but said the words; he rejoiced at the revolution in there was no need of a revolution-and he Prance, as the people had been long deprived particularly made use of those words “ of civil and religious liberty, and he hoped have no occasion for a revolution.” they would now enjoy both; and that we You have I think before given an answer being influenced by the spirit of the gospel, to a similar charge; but I would again ask should now be united as brethren, and the you did the defendant utter these words in wars and discord which had so long prevailed the fourteenth count, “ Under these grievbetween the two nations be prevented; he ances, it is time,” &c. ?-I never heard any never said it would open the eyes of the thing of the kind; the general tendency of people of England--the sermon was of a con- the sermon was not like it. trary tendency; and he never represented the Do you think if the words had been used people of England as being in the same state you should have recollected them ?-Yes, as I as the French were. should have thought he spoke them to stir up You are sure he never used those words ?- a tumult. I am; for had he used words so striking I In what you have said of the sermon do • must have recollected them. you speak from your own recollection ?-Yes. we Did you ever see the sermon?-No, but I | You did not desire Mr. Winterbotham to heard Mr. Winterbotham read it once some read the sermon to you?—No, I did not know months ago-after the indictments were pre-of his intention to do it, I went to Mrs. Gibbs ferred; I had frequently conversed about it by chance. before. Cross-examined by Mr. Fanshawe. The defendant I believe is a very particular acquaintance of yours?—I attend his preaching regularly, but have no other particular acquaintance with him. Mr. William Pearce sworn.-Examined by Were you at the meeting in How's-lane, on the fifth of November last?—I was. Did you pay attention to the sermon ?—I did, from the beginning to end. Did you hear the defendant utter the words charged in the first count?-No, nor any words similar to them. He did not utter any thing like this count? Pray how long was the defendant preaching this sermon-About three quarters of an-Nothing that could bear any analogy to it hour. -He called the Revolution of 1688, a glorious one. Are his sermons generally of that length? -Yes. This sermon was preached I believe on a Monday, were you at this meeting the day before?-Yes, and every Sunday before for five or six weeks. Can you recollect any particular sermon the defendant preached for a week or month before?-No. Can you recollect the text of any?—No. You say you heard the sermon read, where was it read?-At a Mrs. Gibbs's. Pray who was there when the sermon was read?-Mrs. Gibbs, Mr. Bowering, and myself. Pray what are you, are you in any business?—No, I am a widow, and live with my father. Mr. Winterbotham visits you, I believe sometimes?-He sometimes calls, and may stay and drink a dish of tea. Do you ever visit him?-No. How came you to be at Mrs. Gibbs's when the sermon was read-did you go there on purpose?-No, Mrs. Gibbs is an acquaint-I ance-I called by chance I often do so without any particular invitation. You did not know the defendant was going to read the sermon?--I did not. Did you ever make any minutes of the sermon-Yes. Did any person desire you so to do?-No; but as I heard a prosecution was likely to take place, I did it no one knew I had done it. How long was it after the sermon was preached?Some time. How can you then speak so positive?-It was impossible for me to avoid recollecting it-there was so much conversation about it. But you don't recollect any thing of any other sermon ?-If there had been a like complaint against any other sermon, I should have endeavoured to have recollected that also. What led you to make minutes of this sermon in particular-did you ever do it of any other? I heard a prosecution was threatened, and did it in case I should be called on as an evidence, Did the defendant utter the words laid in the second count ?-He did not use any such words-He approved of the revolution in France, but made no application of it to the people of England. In what sense did Mr. Winterbotham approve of the revolution in France?--He approved of it so far as it would prevent future wars with this country; and as it would make way for the spread of the gospel-as it would unite in the bonds of friendship with us, those who had long been our enemies, and thus be a considerable saving to this nation. Did the defendant utter the words charged in the third count?-He lamented that while our commerce was extended to such a degree, there were such a number of poor in the streets and workhouses, and of prisoners in the gaols: but he said not one word about oppressive taxes. He did not say any thing of oppressive taxes?—No, nor do I suppose he would have dared to do it in the pulpit:-had he done it, should have for ever deserted his ministry. Did the defendant utter the words laid in the fifth count?-He did not say any such thing; if he had, it would have been quite inconsistent with the whole tenor of his sermon. Did the defendant utter the words charged in the sixth count?-He did not say, " I speak boldly, I deny it:"-he is not given to egotism in the pulpit. And what he said about paying off the national debt, he did not state as a sentiment of his own, but referred for proof of what he said to the debates in the House of Commons. Did you hear the defendant utter the words charged in the seventh count?—I heard nothing like them. Do you think you should have heard them if they had been uttered?—I must have heard them if they had been used. You really think you must have heard them?-It is impossible they could have escaped me if they had been spoken. Did the defendant utter the words charged in the ninth count?-No, he said nothing like them, nothing tending to such an idea; it would have been altogether inconsistent with the tenor of his discourse-He recommended them to come forward in a legal way-by a legal application to parliament in defence of their rights. Then what Mr. Winterbotham proposed for the defence of their rights was an application to parliament?-Yes, he recommended it to be done in a constitutional way, and mentioned an application to the House of Commons. He did not say we were to stand up as they did in France?-No, he said there was no necessity for anarchy, confusion, or blood. Cross-examined by Mr. Clapp. Did you ever see the sermon?-Yes, he showed it to me at my request, about four months ago. Then it is from what you read that you speak?—No-the reading only confirmed my recollection-I did not recollect every passage I read and I only speak of what I recollected to have been preached. Mr. Caleb Bowering sworn.-Examined by Mr. Gibbs. Were you present when Mr. Winterbotham preached this sermon on the 5th of November?-Yes, I was there at the beginningthe text was in Exodus, 13th Chap. 8th verse, "Thou shalt show thy son," &c. Did Mr. Winterbotham utter the words laid in the first count?-The words were not spoken by Mr. Winterbotham-nor any thing that bore the least resemblance to them-on the contrary, he said our constitution was a good one. Did Mr. Winterbotham utter the words laid in the second count?-The latter words charged in the count, "I make no doubt but it has opened the eyes of the people of England," were not spoken:-Mr. Winterbotham rejoiced at the revolution in France, as it would open an intercourse between the two nations--as it was a blow to popery and was a likely means for the spread of the gospel in those parts. Did Mr. Winterbotham use the words But the reading of it did refresh your me-charged in the third count?-He lamented that mory?—Not much. Pray have you ever conversed with the defendant about this sermon?-Yes, but not so much as I have with other people. You say the reading of the sermon did not refresh your memory much-how is it then that you recollect so perfectly what was said? -The 5th of November was a remarkable day-and when I considered my friend was about to be indicted for seditious expressions, which he did not utter, I endeavoured to recollect all that I could of the sermon. You say the 5th of November was a remarkable day-are there any other particular days in which you go to meeting, that would lead you to remember the sermon-such as the day of king Charles's martyrdom?—I do not go to meeting on that day-but if I thought I should be called on about any other sermon, I should endeavour to recollect it. As I believe Mr. Winterbotham lives in your house, I would ask you if it is customary for him to write his sermons before he preaches them?--On any particular occasion, he writes his sermon at length; at other times, only the outlines of them. What did you mean, when you said the defendant was not given to egotism?-That it is not his usual way of delivering his sentiments, to use the words I say, I speak, &c. How does he then speak?-He instead of using the I, will probably and generally say we. When Mr. Winterbotham was speaking of the Revolution in 1688, don't you think in that instance he might say I?—Yes, I believe he did there. When he was speaking of the French revolution don't you think it is possible he might say -He might do it. while our commerce flourished, our streets were filled with poor, and our gaols with felons and debtors--but he did not attribute it to oppressive laws and taxes. You are sure he did not attribute it to op pressive laws and taxes?-He did not say the laws or taxes were oppressive, but on the contrary spoke of the laws as very good. Did Mr. Winterbotham use the words in the latter part of this count, "I am astonished," &c.?-He did not, nor any words like them; he said it was necessary to stand forward to obtain a reformaion in the representation of the people, and instanced the Russian armament, in which he said the voice of the people and that of the parliament were at variance-that a reform in parliament was wanted to remove those evils under which we laboured. Did Mr. Winterbotham say how this reform was to be obtained?-Yes, it was to be applied for by petition to the House of Commons. Did Mr. Winterbotham utter the words laid in the fifth count?-He did not. Did he use the words charged in the sixth count?-He used no such words as "I speak boldly, I deny it." At the end of a sentence, he said it appeared to be as much reduced as a man reduces his fortune by taking money out of one pocket and putting it into the other; but he did not utter this as an opinion of his own-it appeared to me that he spoke of it on some other authority. Did Mr. Winterbotham utter the words charged in the seventh count?-He said nothing that could bear the least resemblance to them. Are you confident he did not?-If he had it must have attracted my notice. Did Mr. Winterbotham utter the words charged in the ninth count?-No such words proved of the revolution in France?—He said the revolution of France had rescued millions from tyranny and oppression, it had opened were used: his sermon recommended his hearers to peace; to avoid disorder, and to give up party disputes. He never held up the example of France, nor ever once ex-a door for the spread of the gospel, and he pressed a wish for any revolution in this country, but only for a reform of the abuses in parliament. Did Mr. Winterbotham utter the words in the fourteenth count?-He did not say the taxes were a grievance, or that it was time for us to stand forth in defence of our rights. Cross-examined by Mr. Serjeant Rooke. Did you ever see this sermon, or hear it read at any time?—I heard the sermon read,, but cannot say how long ago. I had made minutes of it before I heard it read. What are you?—A servant to Mrs. Gibbs. Where did you hear the sermon read?-In Mrs. Gibbs's parlour. How came you to be there? were you called in on purpose?—I constantly sit there. Who was in the parlour besides you, when it was read?-Mrs. Holland and Mrs. Gibbs. Do you think there was nothing in all the sermon to make the people of this country discontented, and to stir them up to sedition against the government?-Mr. Winterbotham, in his sermon, advised the people, if they were discontented with the present appearance of things, to apply legally to parliament for redress. You say he advised them to apply to parliament for redress; pray did he not find much fault with the parliament?-He observed we had not a true representation. Did he not find fault with the taxes, and say they were oppressive?-He admitted the necessity of taxes, but did not say they were oppressive. hoped that now the sword of war would be sheathed, and every man would worship God in his own way, under his own vine and his own fig-tree. Were these the reasons for which he rejuiced in it?--Yes, and no other. Did the defendant utter the words charged in the third count?—No, he did not. If he had said any thing about standing forth, I should have called on him to have known what he meant. He spoke of the streets being filled with poor, and the gaols with felons; but said nothing about the laws: and he did not apply the word "oppressive" to the taxes. You are sure he did not say, "he was astonished they did not stand forth in defence of their rights"?-He did not exhort the people to any such thing. Did the defendant utter the words charged in the fifth count?—He did not use any such words. Did the defendant use the words laid in the sixth count?-He did not say, "I speak boldly, I deny it." He said it was intimated that the national debt had been reduced; but that by a reference to the debates and estimates in the House of Commons, it appeared the same as a man's taking money out of one pocket and putting it into the other. Did the defendant utter the words laid in the seventh count?-He did not, but he said the representatives of the people were invested with a power to grant or refuse supplies. Did the defendant use the words laid in the You are sure he did not say they were op-ninth count?-No, he did not use them; if pressive?—I never heard him use the words. he had, I must have taken notice of them, as John Wooten sworn.—Examined by Mr. East. they appear to me to be opposite to the views of his sermon, as he recommended to lay Were you at the meeting in How's lane on aside all party spirit; and said he hoped a the 5th of November?-I was. door was opened for the French to hear the gospel, and enjoy the same blessings, civil and religious, as we did. Did you hear the sermon?-Yes, I did. Were you there the whole time of service? -Yes, from beginning to end. Did you hear the defendant utter the words laid in the first count?-The defendant never said so during the whole time he was in the pulpit, nor any thing that bore any analogy or similitude to it. Did the defendant utter the words laid in the second count?-The defendant approved of the revolution in France; but did not say any thing about opening the eyes of the people of England. Can you tell us why the defendant ap Did the defendant utter the words laid in the fourteenth count?-He did not use those words: the defendant seemed to intimate that we were enjoying rights beyond others; and said we ought to act with becoming dig nity, and not throw ourselves into a state of anarchy and confusion, for we wanted neither revolution nor bloodshed. Have you ever seen the sermon ?—No, I have never seen a particle of it. Did you ever hear it read?-No, I never did. Did any one ever offer to show you the ser* In order to prevent wrong ideas of this mon?-No; if any one had, I should have word, the reader is informed that Mr. Bower-looked upon it as tampering with me. ing is a person of very respectable connexions; and at the time of this trial, conducted an extensive business in the linen drapery for Mrs. Gibbs, then a widow.—Orig. Edit. Cross-examined by Mr. Scrjeant Lawrence. What are you?-A biscuit-baker in the victualling office at Plymouth. I served my time there. Do you mean to take upon you to say, that what you have given in evidence were the identical words spoken by the defendant?-I could not mention the identical words spoken by the defendant, but I have endeavoured to convey his ideas, and as near as possible in his own words. Then you cannot say you have given us the express words the defendant used?-I cannot say every word I have mentioned was used, by him. But as you do not take upon you to recollect the whole of the sermon, how can you take upon you to swear, that the words charged in the indictment were not spoken? -I conceive the words charged as spoken by the defendant, to be diametrically opposite to the tenor of his sermon, and therefore am certain he did not use them. How can you be certain he did not use them?-Why, for instance, we might pass by a current of water a hundred times without noticing it while it runs in its proper channel, but should it instantaneously start from its course, and take an opposite direction, it must very forcibly strike our notice; so while Mr. Winterbotham continued to preach that evening invariably suitable to the occasion of his subject—I cannot take upon me to repeat every word of the discourse-but if Mr. Winterbotham, after exhorting us to act with becoming dignity, and assuring us we wanted no revolution, had invited us to stand forward in fence of our rights, and endeavoured to in flame the minds of his hearers, it would have been impossible for such language to have escaped my notice. Are you positive they were not used?-I am as positive as a man can be; if they had been used they would have struck me as a goad in a sore place. What do you mean by a goad in a sore place? It is scripture language, and perhaps you do not un:lerstand it. You say the words charged are opposite to the tenor of the defendant's discourse. What do you conceive to have been the tenor of the sermon?-I do not think it was calculated to stir up sedition, or to inflame the minds of the people; the defendant wished indeed for a reform in parliament, but if he had uttered the words laid in the indictment, I would have voluntarily come forward in behalf of the prosecution. Rev. Mr. Gibbs, sworn.-Examined by Mr. Gibbs. Mr. Gibbs, what are you?-I am a dissenting minister at Plymouth, and have been so for more than forty years. What is Mr. Winterbotham?—He is my assistant Were you present at the preaching of this sermon? I was; the text was Exodus, 13th chap. and 8th verse. I paid particular attention to the sermon from beginning to end. Mr. Winterbotham's design was, to let his VOL. XXII. hearers know that a national festival was introduced by divine appointment among the Jews, on a very extraordinary occasion-to commemorate their deliverance from Egyptian bondage; he observed that it had been usual for most nations to commemorate grand national events which had occurred; and that on that day they were called upon by the legislature to celebrate two grand national events, as Britons and Christians. Did you hear Mr. Winterbotham utter the words laid in the first count?—No, he did not use those words: on the contrary, he said he thought the laws made at the Revolution very excellent, as they had established our future rights. I am sure if the words had been used they would have struck me. Did you hear Mr. Winterbotham use the words laid in the second count?--He did speak some part of them, but not the whole; he approved of the revolution of France, and assigned his reasons for so doing: but he said nothing about the opening the eyes of the people of England. He said the French revolution would be the happy means of delivering millions from despotism and tyranny, and preventing wars; that it would unite us together with them, and save much blood and treasure to this country-that it would be the means of spreading civil and religious liberty, and the knowledge of the gospel through those parts which had long been in darkness. He said that we wanted no revolution here; but said the French had been copying our example. Then Mr. Winterbotham did not say, "I do not doubt but it has opened the eyes of the people of England ?"-No, nor did I discover any thing in the sermon alluding to the people of England seeing a necessity for a revolution; if the defendant had used those words, they would have struck me so forcibly that I should have despised the man. Did Mr. Winterbotham use the words charged in the third count?-The words were not used. He lamented that in a time of peace and national prosperity, when our trade was extended to every quarter of the globe, that our streets were filled with poor, and our gaols with thieves; but he did not charge it to oppressive laws and taxes, but to the luxury of the age, and the exorbitant price of every necessary of life: He wished parliament, in their wisdom, would consider the necessities of the charge, "I am astonished that you are of the poor. With respect to the other part quiet and contented under these grievances, and do not stand forth in defence of your rights," I never heard any such words used. You are certain these last words, "I am astonished," &c. were not used by Mr. Winterbotham? I am astonished that they should be brought forward, for if he had used them, they would have made a deep impression on my mind, and I should highly have disapproved of them; I have always been a peaceable man myself, and if Mr. Winter-. 3 K |